On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but it
seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...

Insight?
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

The "reverse" flag is the "moving forward" emblem, authorized/mandated in
the current theater to be "thrusting toward the enemy" in combat rather than
the technically "correct" display which implies moving away from the fray.


"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but
it
> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>
> Insight?
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

Pechs1 wrote:
> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but it
> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...

Pechs, the starfield goes at the front, as if the rest of the flag
were blowing as you walk forward. If it appears to be blowing the
other way, that means you're retreating.

Speaking of that, some guys like to wear their state flags on their
right shoulder on flight suits. Invariably it is a "left shoulder"
flag, and I try not to pass up the opportunity to tease them about
this- in a good natured way of course :)

One last thing, it seems to me that an awful lot of law enforcement
agencies wear the "retreating" flag. Maybe it is supposed to
symbolize something, but I think it's just one of those things and
nobody in charge realizes it.

JJ McIntyre wrote:
> The "reverse" flag is the "moving forward" emblem,
> authorized/mandated in the current theater

It's hardly limited to "the current theater," whatever that means. It's
been this way on US uniforms for quite along time (probably as long as there
have been flag patches on the shoulders).

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

Pechs,

Uniformed regulations - The stars have to be facing forward. You can wear a
flag on your uniform on the right shoulder as long as the stars are forward.
(The right shoulder has to be a command decision, not the individual) If
they are reversed, it should not be allowed.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Jake

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but
> it
> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>
> Insight?
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but
> it
> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>
> Insight?
> P. C. Chisholm

Flag is displayed as if being flown from a staff. Same technique is used on
flags painted or decaled on both sides of aircraft.

Tex

Say what?

Army 607-1

28-18. Wear of full-color U.S. flag cloth replica

a. General. During joint or multi-nation operations, soldiers are authorized
to wear the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica on utility and organizational
uniforms. Wear of the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is at the
discretion of theorganizational commander, when the distinguishing of
individual national soldiers is desired, and overrides the tactical
consideration of full-color insignia on uniforms. During joint operations,
the joint commander normally will prescribe the policy for wear. Soldiers
are not authorized to wear the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica upon their
return to home station.

b. Description. Chapter 1, Title 4, United States Code, provides for the
design of the U.S. flag and specifies the colors as red, white, and blue.
Colors other than red, white, and blue violate the U.S. Code; therefore,
subdued-colored flags are not authorized for wear. The size of the
full-color cloth U.S. flag replica is approximately 2 inches by 3 inches.

c. How worn.

(1) When approved for wear, the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is sewn
1.2 inch below the right shoulder seam of the temperate, hot-weather,
enhanced hot-weather, and desert BDU; the BDU field jacket; and the
cold-weather uniform (see fig 28-135). If the SSI-FWTS is worn on the right
shoulder of the utility uniform, the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is
placed 1.8 inch below the right shoulder sleeve insignia (see fig 28-136).
The SSI-FWTS is notauthorized for wear on organizational uniforms, unless
indicated above.

(2) The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field
faces forward, or to the flag's own right. When worn in this manner, the
flag is facing to the observer's right, and gives the effect of the flag
flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward. The appropriate replica
for the right shoulder sleeve is identified as the reverse side flag.

There has been no mandate or authorization for a reverse flag. (Stars facing
backwards) If an Area Commander has given approval for such, he is in
violation of uniform regulations.

All Branches Flight suits are left shoulder stars forward.

Jake

Capt USN

9 months in county, Afghanistan and Iraq over the last 2 years.





"JJ McIntyre" > wrote in message
...
> The "reverse" flag is the "moving forward" emblem, authorized/mandated in
> the current theater to be "thrusting toward the enemy" in combat rather
> than
> the technically "correct" display which implies moving away from the
> fray.
>
>
> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army,
>> but
> it
>> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>>
>> Insight?
>> P. C. Chisholm
>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer
>
>

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
>
> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but
> it
> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>
> Insight?

The flag is placed "backwards" on things that move so that it appears the
way a cloth flag would.

(Pechs1) wrote in message >...
> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but it
> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>
> Insight?
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Blue field facing forward.

Rich

On 11/25/04 1:19 PM, in article
, "Rich" >
wrote:

> (Pechs1) wrote in message
> >...
>> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but it
>> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>>
>> Insight?
>> P. C. Chisholm
>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
>
> Blue field facing forward.
>
> Rich

Or in the case of Navy pilots, just accumulate enough experience so that you
can cover one shoulder with a 1,000 hrs patch (or x,000 hrs as appropriate)
and the other with a unit patch or TOPGUN patch if applicable. No flag
required.

--Woody

Jake Donovan wrote:
[snip]

> There has been no mandate or authorization for a reverse flag. (Stars
> facing backwards) If an Area Commander has given approval for such,
> he is in violation of uniform regulations.

The original question was why are the flags reversed -- that is, with the
stars to the front, or right side, instead of the usual left side. Under
the regs you cited, the right-shoulder flag is specifically allowed, and is
required to be worn so that the canton (the field of stars) is to the
observer's right, which puts it at the front of the shoulder. That's
"backwards" to the normal left-shoulder version.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

Tom,

That is correct and clarifies a few others questions, but I was also
commenting on the comment made about the "retreat" statement.

Jake

( I ate too much today)


"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Jake Donovan wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> There has been no mandate or authorization for a reverse flag. (Stars
>> facing backwards) If an Area Commander has given approval for such,
>> he is in violation of uniform regulations.
>
> The original question was why are the flags reversed -- that is, with the
> stars to the front, or right side, instead of the usual left side. Under
> the regs you cited, the right-shoulder flag is specifically allowed, and
> is required to be worn so that the canton (the field of stars) is to the
> observer's right, which puts it at the front of the shoulder. That's
> "backwards" to the normal left-shoulder version.
>
> --
> Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
> "Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
> wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872
>
>
>
>

Woody,

I thought it sucked when the mandate came down only one patch per shoulder.
The pen cover looked so nice with a TG patch.

:-)

Jake

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/25/04 1:19 PM, in article
> , "Rich"
> >
> wrote:
>
>> (Pechs1) wrote in message
>> >...
>>> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army,
>>> but it
>>> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>>>
>>> Insight?
>>> P. C. Chisholm
>>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
>>> Phlyer
>>
>> Blue field facing forward.
>>
>> Rich
>
> Or in the case of Navy pilots, just accumulate enough experience so that
> you
> can cover one shoulder with a 1,000 hrs patch (or x,000 hrs as
> appropriate)
> and the other with a unit patch or TOPGUN patch if applicable. No flag
> required.
>
> --Woody
>

On 11/25/04 10:05 PM, in article jYxpd.3712$wa1.3178@lakeread04, "Jake
Donovan" > wrote:

> Woody,
>
> I thought it sucked when the mandate came down only one patch per shoulder.
> The pen cover looked so nice with a TG patch.
>
> :-)
>
> Jake

Double-edged sword. I like the flight suit standardization that allows me
to wear the bag into town for lunch without fear of reprisal--although that
was a more recent mandate than the one you're talking about.

I was too junior to be affected by the one unit patch per shoulder rule.

--Woody

JJ writes-<< The "reverse" flag is the "moving forward" emblem,
authorized/mandated in
the current theater to be "thrusting toward the enemy" in combat rather than
the technically "correct" display which implies moving away from the fray.
>><BR><BR>

Got it and thanks. Knew it had to have a reason behind it. I didn't think some
O-3 in the Pentagon got it wrong,
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Got it Capt and thanks. In all the squadrons I have been in (10 or so) none had
the 'standard' be an American flag on either shoulder, hence my ignorance.
Some guys wore this (but they were on the left and 'proper', but most put the
A/C on the left, Nothing on the right. Some had 1000 hr patches instead, but
again, on the left.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

ISTR seeing the American flag on the left shoulder on some uniforms as well.
Blue field was always forward. <<
On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army, but it
seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>>

Having enough patches on your jacket and suit, to look like a walking
billboard on old route 66, was better than a promotion. Any old salt Naval
Aviator, knew the importance that looking good had on your legend
ooops....... I........errrr....cough, cough....... yeah....... reputation.

Red

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:jYxpd.3712$wa1.3178@lakeread04...
> Woody,
>
> I thought it sucked when the mandate came down only one patch per
shoulder.
> The pen cover looked so nice with a TG patch.
>
> :-)
>
> Jake
>
> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 11/25/04 1:19 PM, in article
> > , "Rich"
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> (Pechs1) wrote in message
> >> >...
> >>> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the Army,
> >>> but it
> >>> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
> >>>
> >>> Insight?
> >>> P. C. Chisholm
> >>> CDR, USN(ret.)
> >>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> >>> Phlyer
> >>
> >> Blue field facing forward.
> >>
> >> Rich
> >
> > Or in the case of Navy pilots, just accumulate enough experience so that
> > you
> > can cover one shoulder with a 1,000 hrs patch (or x,000 hrs as
> > appropriate)
> > and the other with a unit patch or TOPGUN patch if applicable. No flag
> > required.
> >
> > --Woody
> >
>
>

Red,

Oh how true.... LOL You know you've earned your "stripe" when this is less
green on your Nomenx Jacket than patches. :-)

Jake

"Red Rider" > wrote in message
m...
> Having enough patches on your jacket and suit, to look like a walking
> billboard on old route 66, was better than a promotion. Any old salt Naval
> Aviator, knew the importance that looking good had on your legend
> ooops....... I........errrr....cough, cough....... yeah.......
> reputation.
>
> Red
>
> "Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
> news:jYxpd.3712$wa1.3178@lakeread04...
>> Woody,
>>
>> I thought it sucked when the mandate came down only one patch per
> shoulder.
>> The pen cover looked so nice with a TG patch.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Jake
>>
>> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On 11/25/04 1:19 PM, in article
>> > , "Rich"
>> > >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> (Pechs1) wrote in message
>> >> >...
>> >>> On the news I see the American flag on the right shoulder of the
>> >>> Army,
>> >>> but it
>> >>> seems backwards, blue field on the right instead of the left...
>> >>>
>> >>> Insight?
>> >>> P. C. Chisholm
>> >>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>> >>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
>> >>> Phlyer
>> >>
>> >> Blue field facing forward.
>> >>
>> >> Rich
>> >
>> > Or in the case of Navy pilots, just accumulate enough experience so
>> > that
>> > you
>> > can cover one shoulder with a 1,000 hrs patch (or x,000 hrs as
>> > appropriate)
>> > and the other with a unit patch or TOPGUN patch if applicable. No flag
>> > required.
>> >
>> > --Woody
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Jake-<< Oh how true.... LOL You know you've earned your "stripe" when this is
less
green on your Nomenx Jacket than patches. :-) >><BR><BR>

Nomex??!!

How about the old nylon one? What true 'old farts' had/have-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

LOL I have one of those too! (OF's)

Problem being is ya can't wear one on da boat.

Jake


"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Jake-<< Oh how true.... LOL You know you've earned your "stripe" when
> this is
> less
> green on your Nomenx Jacket than patches. :-) >><BR><BR>
>
> Nomex??!!
>
> How about the old nylon one? What true 'old farts' had/have-
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer

I've never seen a "Nomex" one... Just the nylon... And last time I was on
the boat, I wore it.

--Woody

On 11/29/04 7:11 PM, in article PMPqd.4121$wa1.3402@lakeread04, "Jake
Donovan" > wrote:

> LOL I have one of those too! (OF's)
>
> Problem being is ya can't wear one on da boat.
>
> Jake
>
>
> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jake-<< Oh how true.... LOL You know you've earned your "stripe" when
>> this is
>> less
>> green on your Nomenx Jacket than patches. :-) >><BR><BR>
>>
>> Nomex??!!
>>
>> How about the old nylon one? What true 'old farts' had/have-
>> P. C. Chisholm
>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
>> Phlyer
>
>

Jake-<< Problem being is ya can't wear one on da boat. >><BR><BR>

I asnwer-why not? In the RR, walking arouind will somebody take you to task for
wearing a nylon flght jacket? Yikes, things have changed a LOT!! if true.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Woody,

Both the CWU 36P and CWU 45P, issued since the late 70's early 80's are
constructed of ARIMNID fibers. AKA Nomex. A quick look at the label will
tell you. Give me a day or so and I'll dig up the Pub #. Nylon is a no go
and has been. I know for a fact that all flight jackets issued in the last
15 years have been made of Arimid fibers. (Other than Leather)

I think what you will find is some of the old nylon jackets get by as few
people can see the difference. How old is yours?

I was on a boat a few weeks ago, I saw no nylon.

Jake


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> I've never seen a "Nomex" one... Just the nylon... And last time I was on
> the boat, I wore it.
>
> --Woody
>
> On 11/29/04 7:11 PM, in article PMPqd.4121$wa1.3402@lakeread04, "Jake
> Donovan" > wrote:
>
>> LOL I have one of those too! (OF's)
>>
>> Problem being is ya can't wear one on da boat.
>>
>> Jake
>>
>>
>> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Jake-<< Oh how true.... LOL You know you've earned your "stripe" when
>>> this is
>>> less
>>> green on your Nomenx Jacket than patches. :-) >><BR><BR>
>>>
>>> Nomex??!!
>>>
>>> How about the old nylon one? What true 'old farts' had/have-
>>> P. C. Chisholm
>>> CDR, USN(ret.)
>>> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
>>> Phlyer
>>
>>
>

On 11/30/04 7:44 PM, in article Yl9rd.531$9n.143@lakeread04, "Jake Donovan"
> wrote:

> Woody,
>
> Both the CWU 36P and CWU 45P, issued since the late 70's early 80's are
> constructed of ARIMNID fibers. AKA Nomex. A quick look at the label will
> tell you. Give me a day or so and I'll dig up the Pub #. Nylon is a no go
> and has been. I know for a fact that all flight jackets issued in the last
> 15 years have been made of Arimid fibers. (Other than Leather)
>

Thanks for prompting some light Googling and self-edcucation. I stand
corrected, sir:

I looked at the label.
Jacket, Flyer's, Men's Summer
Type CWU-36/P
MIL-J-83382C
DLA100-93-C-0323
100% Aromatic polyamide
Carter Industries, INC.

According to

http://www.junantai.com/english/e14zrgzf.htm

That's Nomex (brand name) or "meta-position aromatic polymide."

Personally, I prefer the leather one. My winter jacket has my legacy
Intruder patches (up to O-3 or so). My summer is patchless (so far)... All
patches in the pockets. My leather is warmest.

> I think what you will find is some of the old nylon jackets get by as few
> people can see the difference. How old is yours?
>
> I was on a boat a few weeks ago, I saw no nylon.
>

You must not hang out on the right boats.

Even the admiral (a shoe) wore one on USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT (CVN-71). We
reservists certainly wore ours... But then we wore flight suits in port too.
During my time with CVW-9, the CAG's and DCAG's wore them festooned with
patches from all the CVW squadrons... So did the ship's CO.

--Woody

Woody,

I don't pay that much attention to the jackets to really notice but NATOPS
went to the NOMEX in about 86-87 exclusively. I am sure a lot of the OFs are
grandfathered in but if some anal blackshoe wanted to make a point about it,
he would have some grounds.

All issued jackets since, Winter and summer, are "nomex".

I think it's in
NAVAIR 00-35QH-2

Jake


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/30/04 7:44 PM, in article Yl9rd.531$9n.143@lakeread04, "Jake
> Donovan"
> > wrote:
>
>> Woody,
>>
>> Both the CWU 36P and CWU 45P, issued since the late 70's early 80's are
>> constructed of ARIMNID fibers. AKA Nomex. A quick look at the label
>> will
>> tell you. Give me a day or so and I'll dig up the Pub #. Nylon is a no
>> go
>> and has been. I know for a fact that all flight jackets issued in the
>> last
>> 15 years have been made of Arimid fibers. (Other than Leather)
>>
>
> Thanks for prompting some light Googling and self-edcucation. I stand
> corrected, sir:
>
> I looked at the label.
> Jacket, Flyer's, Men's Summer
> Type CWU-36/P
> MIL-J-83382C
> DLA100-93-C-0323
> 100% Aromatic polyamide
> Carter Industries, INC.
>
> According to
>
> http://www.junantai.com/english/e14zrgzf.htm
>
> That's Nomex (brand name) or "meta-position aromatic polymide."
>
> Personally, I prefer the leather one. My winter jacket has my legacy
> Intruder patches (up to O-3 or so). My summer is patchless (so far)...
> All
> patches in the pockets. My leather is warmest.
>
>> I think what you will find is some of the old nylon jackets get by as few
>> people can see the difference. How old is yours?
>>
>> I was on a boat a few weeks ago, I saw no nylon.
>>
>
> You must not hang out on the right boats.
>
> Even the admiral (a shoe) wore one on USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT (CVN-71). We
> reservists certainly wore ours... But then we wore flight suits in port
> too.
> During my time with CVW-9, the CAG's and DCAG's wore them festooned with
> patches from all the CVW squadrons... So did the ship's CO.
>
> --Woody
>

On 12/2/04 11:11 PM, in article 0ASrd.1712$9n.1091@lakeread04, "Jake
Donovan" > wrote:

> Woody,
>
> I don't pay that much attention to the jackets to really notice but NATOPS
> went to the NOMEX in about 86-87 exclusively. I am sure a lot of the OFs are
> grandfathered in but if some anal blackshoe wanted to make a point about it,
> he would have some grounds.
>
> All issued jackets since, Winter and summer, are "nomex".
>
> I think it's in
> NAVAIR 00-35QH-2

Impressive. Quoting scripture. Not sure what an OF is.

>
> Jake
>
>

I got my winter in 92-93 (old one stolen out of our squadron ladderwell on a
return from a XC. I was kinda torqued. Never found out who, but those
patches start to add up after a while.

My summer one in 94-95. Based on your comments and my re-education, I'm
sure they're "nomex" or Nomex.

--Woody

>Impressive. Quoting scripture. Not sure what an OF is.
>

Just a guess,
OLD FART's like us :)
Sparky

:-) Yep OF's = Old Farts (and I fit the group)

Jake
"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
> >Impressive. Quoting scripture. Not sure what an OF is.
>>
>
> Just a guess,
> OLD FART's like us :)
> Sparky
>